Template talk:Democratic Party (Italy)/meta/color

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Orange

ORANGE official color code of this party. http://www.senato.it/leg/16/BGT/Schede_v3/MappaAula/00000000.htm Italian Senate official website. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.24.129.176 (talk) 23:05, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Maps Template talk:Democratic Party (Italy)/meta/color

Color

Orange is the official color, because it is used in the Italian Senate official website ([1]). The prevailing colors in the PD website ([2]) are white and grey, but they aren't in any way official colors. Green, white and red are in the PD simbol, because they are the italian flag's colors. Then, we must use orange. --94.37.208.17 (talk) 20:52, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you to have opened this discussion! Well, the official color of a party is not decided by an House of a Parliament, but obviousley by the party, and red is in the PD symbol (you said due to the Tricolore, but is anyway a party's color), in the PD rallies or meeting the color which is used is red (always with green, but never with orange). Orange is the color of the Young Democrats, the youth faction of the PD, but not of the PD. And please stop the edit warring until we have reached an agreement. -- Nick.mon (talk) 21:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Since red is always used with green, in rallies, meeting and symbol, why don't we use green? --94.37.208.17 (talk) 21:08, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

We could use green, but this color is already used by Lega Nord and it could creat confusion in maps, graphs and in the election infobox. -- Nick.mon (talk) 21:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

We could use different tonalities, clearer for PD and darker for Lega Nord --94.37.208.17 (talk) 21:15, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

This could be a good proposal, but my question is, if you could agree with me that red and green are the party's colors (or the one used in the logo), why we could not use red? This is not a "provocation" or I don't know what, I would only know why are you against red, which is widely considered as the color of social democratic parties (like the PD)? -- Nick.mon (talk) 21:20 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not against red, I only think that we could use the party official color, and that isn't red. Also on it.wiki orange is used. Red is undoubtedly the traditional color of social democratic parties, but PD is not only a social democratic party. It was formed in 2007 by the social democratic DS and the christian democratic The Daisy. Additionally, red is already used for a lot of left-wing italian parties. --94.37.208.17 (talk) 21:32, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes I saw that in it.Wiki is used orange and, maybe you understood that, I don't agree. You are perfectly right when you said that the PD is a merger of many parties, DS, DL and minor ones, but above all, the PD is a member of the Party of European Socialists and is in the "big house" of the European social democrats, the S&D group in the European Parliament. Red is used for SEL and PRC, but the tonalities are different, and also orange is used for IdV and Radicals. Anyway, we are in two and we will not reach an agreement, let we see what other users that "are working" on the pages about Italian politics, thinks (Checco Autospark Impru20). And a part of this discussion, if you want why don't you create an account, we ned new contributors to work for Italian and International politics. -- Nick.mon (talk) 21:47, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Red is not even on PD flags ([3], they are white with the symbol above), and the socialist group changed the name to admit the PD. Orange is the more appropriate color. Maybe I could create an account, but my knowledge of the english language is very bad.--94.37.208.17 (talk) 21:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes is very hard to have a red background and a red symbol on a flag. In fact I haven't said that the PD is a socialist party but a social democratic one and the color for social democrats is red. Maybe you are right, but I have never seen a PD rally with orange flags (except for Young Dem) or orange background; in fact in 2011 Pisapia and De Magistris (one of IdV and the other a left-wing independent close to SEL) used orange colors to celebrate their victories, because it wasn't used by any parties. And my English isn't good at all! -- Nick.mon (talk) 22:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Generally, we use the colors to simply identify a party. In the USA, both major parties use the traditional American red, white and blue colors in their marketing and representations, as their official colors, but the Democrats are normally identified by the blue and the Republicans by the red, the exact opposite of a lot of countries. They are only conventional colors, and not other. This isn't for me an ideological problem, I only think that we must find an univocal solution. It is absurd that it.wiki uses orange, en.wiki uses red, de.wiki uses green. I think orange is the better solution because it is used in an official source, the Senate website. --94.37.208.17 (talk) 22:20, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes I agree with you that we could use a single color, but probably it will not be possibile and I don't think that the one used by it.Wiki shall be considered the right one. For example for the PSI they used an horrible fucsia that have never been used as PSI color at all! Anyway you are perfectly right and in my personal view the best color is that red (#F0001C). -- Nick.mon (talk) 22:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

P.S. In de.Wiki is used red and few times lightgreen for the infobox. -- Nick.mon (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Anyway let we see what other users will say in the next days! -- Nick.mon (talk) 22:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, we can wait. Anyway, respect to the PSI, you have right to say that the color is horrible and it was never used by the party, but it was chosen, long time ago, because it is easily distinguishable from PCI's red and it was used by journalists to identity PSI (for example they talked of giunte bianco-rosa [4]), then for the same reason that US Democrats are identified by blue. I don't think that it.wiki is always right, but they discussed the matter for long. I think that orange for PD is correct, and preferable, because I find it on the official source which I linked on the top. If I found red, I would re-open the discussion on it.wiki. This is the only source I find. Journals no more use colors to identify PD. Instead TV often use different colors for the same parties, then it isn't a reliable source. The source is one, it is good if you find an other source. Wikipedia should be based on sources, not on personal ideas. Good night. --94.37.208.17 (talk) 23:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Your source is absolutley a reliable one, and orange can be a good color, anyway lot of sources (mainly less important than your one) for example this one of Sky TG 24 or this one or this use red for PD. Anyway I repeat, your one is more reliable if we want decided the color basing on the representations made by the site of the Senate or by newspapers. But I think that the color should be decided from the party's website, from the one of its previous political organization and also to distinguish it from other parties and for example in the 2008 election we have already IdV (which is near to the PD both in the infobox and in the graphs of the Parliament) with orange and could be a problem. Anyway let's wait other users. -- Nick.mon (talk) 8:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

In fact I think that orange is the best color for The Union, because even if it was not used in the symbol, it was the main color un every rally of the coalition, for example here. Morevoer if we had to choose from the Senate website, we should use "black" for Civic Choice and "purple" for New Centre-Right and these are not absolutley their colors. Anyway this is only my personal view. -- Nick.mon (talk) 10:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Your three sources use red not for PD, but for the center-left coalition, which included other parties. Anyway, as I said, TV and journals use different colors for the same party: I saw PD in red, pink, orange and maybe other colors that now I can't remember. This is an example of a completely different use of colors, where center-left is orange: [5]. For NCD and SC there are no problems: tonalities of blue are largely used in their official websites. You think that the color should be decided from the party's website, but in PD website the main colors are white and grey; white is also in the symbol and it is the flags' color. Do you think that we should use it? Probably no. Green is in the symbol, and was used as campaign color when Veltroni was secretary ([6]), but you said that we can't use it because it is already used by Lega Nord. Then, why you insist on use red? Red is alredy used by lots of parties, presents and pasts, more than green, white and orange. There isn'it any official use of the red color from the party, except the symbol. But, take Forza Italia, they use the same colors in the symbol, the colors of the italian flag, but their official color is light blue (they are called Azzurri) and we use it. PD is member of PSE, but the color of an european party isn't necessary the color of its members; for example, french and portuguese PS use pink, greek PASOK uses green; additionally, PPE is blue, but german CDU, austrain ÖVP, dutch CDA, portuguese PSD (and more others) use different colors (black CDU and ÖVP, green CDA, orange PSD). Red was the color of DS, of course, but not of the other party which founded PD, DL. And Pd is a merger of more parties, it isn't DS that changed name, then we can't use the same color only because it was used by one of its founding parties. And there is no other reason for use red. Orange was officially used not only by Senate, but also by the party itself: for example: [7]; and it is, as you said, the color of the Young Democrats: it isn't the party, yes, but it is a closely linked organization. To distinguish from other parties, it is sufficient using different tonalities. Ultimately, there is no consensus on the use of red: I'm against. You said that orange can be a good color: then, there is a consensus on orange. --94.37.178.116 (talk) 16:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but there is no consensus, we are still in two and I hope that other users will express their opinions. What I want to say is that orange, by now, has never been used as party's color (except for your photo which I think it was taken in 2007, in the first months of "life" of the PD). In the party's website the white and the grey are used for the background, as almost every webistes, and the are words and photos in red and green, there's no orange; moreover, in everey rallies and also in the PD National Assembly the color are, every time, red and green as you can see here, here or here; and also the member card of the party was red or with the Tricolore. So red is in the party's symbol, is used in rallies and in the Assembly (alone with green) and orange is used only by the youth wing of the party, why should we use it? You said, and you are perfectly right, that the PD is a merger of two main parties (one a bit stronger than the other one), whose official colors were red for the DS and a light green (or sometimes light blue) for The Daisy; I know that PD is not the perfect heir of the DS and of its colors, and also the leaders (especially the one of this period who came from DL) are not all former democratic socialists, but the PD mantained lot of "traditions" of the DS, for example Feste de L'Unità (which had been named Feste Democratiche until few months ago when Renzi restored the old name) and I think also the color, which is used to identified the party in all the meetings organized by the party. Moreover, we have made many many maps, graphs of elections and graphs of parliaments and regional councils, we have worked a lot to have a complete section for all the elections and we cannot change party's color from one day to another and I hope that the other users will express what they think :) -- Nick.mon (talk) 17:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

We can wait, for now. But we must immediately change the tonality of red. PD and DS can't have the same color, they are two distinct party and the same color is inappropriate in lists of ministers and presidents. Using a different tonality will not create problem with maps and graphs, red is in any case red. For example, this red: #EF6964    --94.37.178.116 (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

This color is not properly red, is a sort of salmon, anyway, we could also use a darker color for DS and PDS, for example this one, the same one used for the PCI and I think it is a good idea because PDS and DS, were the officially heirs of the Communist Party. #CE2029    -- Nick.mon (talk) 17:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we could use the darker red for DS and PDS, it is distinguishable when approached to #F0001C. --94.37.178.116 (talk) 17:55, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Great, I will change it immediately! -- Nick.mon (talk) 17:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Very well, this is, for now, a good compromise. But my first opinion remain to use orange for PD, if other users agreed. --94.37.178.116 (talk) 18:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes of course, and my one remains red, anyway I think that is a good compromise but now we have only to wait and see to what they will say. Thank you and good evening! -- Nick.mon (talk) 18:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

First, let me tell you that I'm surprised that this discussion has not been linked at Talk:Democratic Party (Italy).
Second, my opinion. Different parties can have the same metacolor, if their color is the same. Thus, I don't see any need of having different metacolors for the DS and PD (or even the PSI, the PCI and the PDS). This said, I think that PD's color should be red as the PD is a social-democratic party and the main Italian member of the PES.
--Checco (talk) 08:56, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I remain on the idea that we would use orange, but this discussion is too long and I don't want to spend more time on it. I only synthesize my position, if you aren't in agreement with me we can leave red, this isn't a great problem for me:

• If we consider that green, white and red are the official colors, there isn't in any case a predominance of red on the others, in meetings, flags and similar things.
• The PES membership is irrilevant. Member parties use colors they prefer (french and portuguese PS use pink, greek PASOK uses green).
• Different parties can have the same metacolor if their color is the same and the parties are, in substance, the same (as PDS and DS). But PD is not the same of DS, is a fusion of DS and DL (consider that PD's headquarters are the same of DL), then is right to use different colors. If we use red, we chose different tonalities. Denying this simple thing is like denying half of party's history. Remember that current leader and president of the council Renzi, former president of the council Letta, current president of the Republic Mattarella and party's founding father and former president of the council Prodi came all from this half of the party's history, not from DS/PDS/PCI.
• PD is not only a social-democratic party. If we made an ideological reasoning, as I think you have done, we could chouse a color that represent a synthesis of social-democratic red and christian-democratic white. This color could be pink, as could be orange, if we consider them "attenuated" reds.
• Orange is often linked to the party, but of course less than red, white and green. For pink, the reasoning can be analogous. Pink and salmon are shades of red. If using an official color could be a problem, it's possible using these unofficial conventional colors.

Anyway, this kind of discussion could go long for weeks without finding an agreement. Then, we can close the discussion today, maintaining the status quo, even though I disagree it. --94.37.176.31 (talk) 11:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to have to get behind Nick.mon and Checco in identifying red as the official colour of PD, at least in the de facto sense. Italian parties for the most part don't have official colours like political parties in my own country (the UK) have, however for simplicity's sake, I'll go with red as 1.) PD is essentially a social-democratic party, if arguably an unusual one by European standards 2.) red is visible in the party logo 3.) the other Italian parties identified with the colour red are much smaller than PD, almost all extra-parliamentary parties in fact 4.) it completes a red-blue duality with Forza Italia, PD's main rival. FWIW, I don't remember orange being associated with the PD except at the time of the party's foundation in October 2007, before the current 'PG Tips' tricolour logo was unveiled.--Autospark (talk) 12:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

You've right to say that italian parties don't have official colours like british parties, but we can't consider red the official colour of PD neither in the de facto sense. There is no univocal colour for PD. Orange is used, like others:

• Orange - [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
• Green - [13]
• Yellow - [14] [15]
• Salmon - [16]
• Purple - [17]

Also red is used, of course. But, consider that orange is used in n.11, from the official Senate website, and n.12, from the official Chamber of Deputies website (the composition is relative to the XV legislature), and yellow in n.14 and n.15, also from the official Chamber website (XVI and XVII legislature). Red is used only for a wrong parallelism with foreign politics. In official PD use, red isn't prevailing over green and white. And symbol's colours aren't necessary party's colours: take Forza Italia, they use the same colours in the symbol. Ultimately, there is no reason to use red for PD. As you said, PD is an unusual social-democratic party, and we have all the reasons to use an "unusual" colour for a social-democratic party. --94.37.214.84 (talk) 13:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Other orange: [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]. The first comes from the website of the official PD's newspaper, L'Unità. You can see that orange is largely used to identify PD. I strongly think that we should use this colour. --94.37.214.84 (talk) 14:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

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Orange (2)

I support the change of PD colour to orange, which is the color of the center-left in Italy. Red is strongly used by the pure left in Italy.--Barlafus (talk) 23:56, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

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