src: upload.wikimedia.org
Video Wikipedia talk:In the news/Recurring items/Archive 11
!rules for adding/removing
Before any new list is adopted, it's imperative that a process be developed for add/remove later. Does an item have to pass ITN/C for an add? Is no consensus to keep == remove or does there have to be strong consensus to remove? Are there other criteria? Past discussions have degenerated into accusations of made-up rules. Let's not repeat that unpleasantness in the future. --IP98 (talk) 00:36, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- Comment FWIW I oppose requiring an item to pass ITN/C before reaching ITN/R and I oppose no consensus to keep == remove for a remove discussion. --IP98 (talk) 00:36, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- Comment. I think we should encourage items to have passed ITNC as one way to gauge potential support but it shouldn't be a requirement; I'm sure someone could nominate an ITNR worthy event that hadn't been posted before, even if it would be rare. I believe that the subject of removal discussions should be whether or not to remove an item, not whether or not to keep it. If there is no consensus to remove, then it doesn't get removed. 331dot (talk) 01:02, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- The reason I oppose passing at ITN/C first is because items there must satisfy notability and quality, where at ITN/R only the notability of the event is discussed. --IP98 (talk) 10:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- Comment Agree that having passed ITN/C should not be required. On balance, I think no consensus should mean that status quo remains and the item is not removed. In compiling the new list, however, no consensus will mean that an item won't be on it, even if is on the current one. Neljack (talk) 01:37, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: How is "no consensus" treated for featured and good content. I checked featured lists for which "consensus must be reached that it still meets the criteria" so there is at least one precedent for "no consensus" equals "removal"/"demotion". Frankly, based on the nature of this list I think "no consensus for remaining on the list" should mean it's removed from the list; however as all items will have demonstrable consensus for original inclusion after the review process I can grudgingly accept "no consensus" equalling "keep". 85.167.109.26 (talk) 11:09, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- If an item is added to WP:FLRC, a notice is added to the article talk page. If no consensus keep == removal, then remove proposals here should trigger a notice at WT:ITN to encourage participation. --IP98 (talk) 14:35, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
- The normal way Wikipedia works is "no consensus" defaults to the status quo. I see no reason ITN/R should be any different, especially considering the small closed community way not reflect the broader wishes which the item was added to begin with. Any item passing ITN/C first is good advice, but mandating it is unnecessary bureaucracy. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Maps Wikipedia talk:In the news/Recurring items/Archive 11
Uber Cup and Thomas Cup - proposed removal from ITN/R
src: www.whataboutclients.com
Add proposal: Athletics - Breaking of 100m world record
src: upload.wikimedia.org
FIBA World Championship (Olympic basketball every four years)
src: leanpub.com
More "low controversy" sports items
src: upload.wikimedia.org
Proposal: How to deal with "no consensus" and "weak consensus"
We have recently discussed a number of shoo-ins for the rebooted list, but not all cases are equally clear and (nearly) unanimous decisions are not the end all-be all of ITNR. I also got the feeling that we wouldn't add "no consensus" items to that list, on the argument that it is a new list thus we are not technically removing things with no consensus so this is not really urgent.
Nevertheless, when the new list is completed "no consensus" will become an issue again. We discussed this a bit above and it is clear we won't go for a "no consensus = remove" option. However, I can't be the only one that sees a problem with items remaining on an "overrule" list based on e.g. a 4:5 minority to retain after an initial 7:3 consensus to include. I also see a problem with items being listed on an "overrule" list with a "weak consensus" of relatively few editors. It is hard to justify a even a two thirds majority of 6:3 overruling a later 6:6 no consensus (or possibly consensus against) but easier to justify 12:6 or 16:8 doing the same.
For these reasons I propose that we should list close calls as RFCs in order to get input from editors not frequenting the ITN system. Whether this should be just a strong recommendation, or whether failure to do so should result in delisting the "no consensus" item is something we should discuss, as well as what constitutes too weak consensus to justify being on an overrule list.
My personal view (or !vote) is that the RFC should be mandatory for close call removals. If we do not at least attempt to get the wider community's input we can hardly justify a "no consensus" overruling ITNC. In the event that the larger discussion fails to reach a consensus the majority above are in favour of keeping on the list, and I don't challenge that now as all items on the rebooted list will have at least one consensus for inclusion. For suggested additions an RFC would be an option for the supporting side as if they do not get the consensus nothing will happen. I further suggest that we strongly recommend soliciting input by means of an RFC if the consensus for inclusion could reasonably be seen as weak. (This would be the opposers "responsibility".) Disclaimer: Numbers used as examples do not represent vote counting, but rather the number of idealised !votes with valid, reasonable arguments on their side.
The key proposal is that in the event of a removal discussion resulting in no consensus it should not immediately be closed as such, instead we should ask the wider community by means of an RFC. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 22:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think we need a formal policy to do that; users are free to ask for RfCs now. I would also wonder who would determine what a close call is and if it would involve evaluating the arguments given. 331dot (talk) 22:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- I was vague on "close call" as I consider it up for discussion. Good point about RFCs being possible know. With one exception this could be considered a proposal that we explicitly point out and recommend this possibility. The exception is that if a removal proposal is not outright rejected, but ends up as no consensus (i.e. it would not have been included) an RFC should be started (by the would be closer) in lieu of closing as no consensus. I'll clarify this in the opening post. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 23:25, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- An RfC on each item is not remotely feasible. After the first couple, RfC participation would drop to a meaninglessly low level due to editor burnout from those not really interested in ITN but willing to give their opinion once or twice. What we need is an RfC on general guidelines (international press coverage?, cultural value in home country?, "top level"?, etc.) used to determine worthiness. --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
-
- Good points. I don't think "no consensus removals" will be that common once we have a list where all items have at least one consensus. I think the "fundamental criteria" used to select stories are rather vague. I also think we are to strict, in general. I'm not saying we should post celebrity stories, but otherwise I don't think importance is that important. (To take an example currently on this page, I'd prefer that we post things like Uber Cup, but I don't think it fits on ITNR based on the items currently rejected at ITNC. I would support it at ITNC, in a futile attempt to change the current threshold.) 85.167.109.26 (talk) 17:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
src: 1g1uem2nc4jy1gzhn943ro0gz50.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com
Removal proposal - Millennium Prize
Seven mathematical problems, one of which has already been proven. It seems to have crept into ITN/R during this ITN/C nomination back in 2010. I'm not doubting it's notability but I don't think there's a need to place an infrequent, finite event on ITN/R. Any further solutions shouldn't have a problem going through ITN/C. Funny Pika! 18:15, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Support removal let's have them go through ITNC. Given the irregular nature of the award it's hard to guess how much it will actually be in the news when given. Calidum Sistere 18:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Remove. Too irregular for ITNR. 331dot (talk) 18:36, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. As the nominator says, Any further solutions shouldn't have a problem going through ITN/C. So all a removal will do is mean that these items will have posting delayed for about 12 hours while "support" votes roll in. Sure its a little odd, but there's no benefit to removing it. --LukeSurl t c 21:24, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Remove there's no benefit to such an article at ITN/R, as demonstrated by recent ITN/R's which have been dismissed on notability grounds. Obscure items like this need to be debated and 12 hours of delay is really irrelevant in the big scheme of things (how long did we wait before posting the murder of Drummer Rigby?) If we wait two or three days to post something like that, we can debate the solution of a maths problem for a few hours before we post, can't we? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose The only question, to my mind, is whether this prize will always be sufficiently notable to warrant posting (subject to update). I think it will, given that it is a very large prize that involves the solution of major mathematical problems. Additionally science/maths is underrepresented on ITN and ITN/R. Neljack (talk) 22:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose removal - Just because this is finite and irregular, is no reason not to keep it on; it's inevitably a huge deal when one of these is awarded. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Remove - If an item is not "reoccurring" it shouldn't be on ITN/R. While I don't see much chance of any solution being rejected at ITN/C, Millennium Prize solutions are unlikely to occur anywhere near a rate that could reasonably be called "reoccurring" (so far 1 in 12+ years). ITN/R is not meant to include everything we will obvious post, just things that happen once a year (or every few years) at regular intervals. There are many things that will have unanimous support if/when they happen, but aren't suitable for ITN/R. This is one of them. --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 16:15, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Remove; Support - because, first, it isn't recurring. Second, because it could just go through ITN/C if it needs to be on the main page. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 20:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
src: upload.wikimedia.org
Removal proposal: Japan Series baseball
Parameters for reviewing the ITNR list
Proposal: add Giro d'Italia to the cycling section of ITN/R
Removal proposal: National Rugby League, Superleague, and Super Rugby
Removal proposal: International CES and Electronic Entertainment Expo
We never see the major auto shows being listed (Geneva, Paris, Tokyo Frankfurt and Detroit), nor Photokina nor even the Nuremberg International Toy Fair nor nominated yet both International CES and Electronic Entertainment Expo are listed as ITN/R, yet they have their equal level of significance to the two aforementioned shows. Whilst they are significant to the industry itself like any other shows are, I can't see why should they be on ITN/R. Also they are insignificant to the exhibitions, fairs and summits listed on ITN/R. If keep those two, as well as those I mentioned, we may as well list every major international industry shows and ITN will be cluttered with it. Donnie Park (talk) 14:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Support removal of both. I was somewhat taken aback to see the CES being ITN/R, it's interesting, but not much more. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose - I'd rather see those other shows added to ITN/R than removing these. It helps to broaden the scope of what ITN/R covers so that it's more than just deaths, elections, disasters, and sporting events. Mind you, there's selectivity needed - we should be talking events that get mainstream press coverage (CES and E3 do for sure, I'm sure some of those car shows do too). --MASEM (t) 16:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- I would agree with these events being added, if there was something notable to report, other than just the event itself. There are probably dozens of large-scale events with hundreds of thousands of visitors which don't really deserve to be automatically inserted into ITN via ITN/R. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yea, just the events happening - not sufficient. We need almost a two-prong test: that the event occurs is widely reported, and that things that are revealed or discussed during that event are themselves reported, determined on the reoccurring basis. So CES and E3 are big events with big reveals (here for E3 two next-gen consoles and major AAA-list games). I would fairly assume that the mentioned car shows are also big reveals for new models. On the other hand, take something like the San Diego Comic Con, the "big" comic book convention that would be akin to E3/CES - it gets attention, but rarely does the new "products" introduced get mainstream coverage. As such, I wouldn't even consider it for ITN/R. --MASEM (t) 16:35, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think that two-prong assessment comment is bang on. That's why I don't think these should be ITN/R because ITN/R implies no need to assess the significance of the event, just the update. If we deemed (for instance) that both the PS5 and the Xbox 1040 being announced at CES 2018 is important enough for ITN, so be it, but if it's "Sim City 7" gets released and Service Pack 7 for Windows 8, that's hardly ground-breaking. I could probably list a dozen trade shows in the UK alone which attract over 100,000 visitors (similar to CES). The Rambling Man (talk) 16:39, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yea, just the events happening - not sufficient. We need almost a two-prong test: that the event occurs is widely reported, and that things that are revealed or discussed during that event are themselves reported, determined on the reoccurring basis. So CES and E3 are big events with big reveals (here for E3 two next-gen consoles and major AAA-list games). I would fairly assume that the mentioned car shows are also big reveals for new models. On the other hand, take something like the San Diego Comic Con, the "big" comic book convention that would be akin to E3/CES - it gets attention, but rarely does the new "products" introduced get mainstream coverage. As such, I wouldn't even consider it for ITN/R. --MASEM (t) 16:35, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- I would agree with these events being added, if there was something notable to report, other than just the event itself. There are probably dozens of large-scale events with hundreds of thousands of visitors which don't really deserve to be automatically inserted into ITN via ITN/R. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Comment. I'm indifferent as to whether these shows should be ITNR or not, but I will say that other stuff exists and that is not a sufficient argument to remove these shows; if one feels important trade shows are being left out, then they should propose them for posting(as ITNR or not). I would also keep in mind that we are in the process of creating a draft rewrite of the ITNR list (link above) and this discussion could probably be taken into account in doing so. 331dot (talk) 16:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Vehement oppose these trade shows are big events and are widely followed by fans. The easily satisfy WP:ITN/P #1 and #3. I'm in favor of adding more shows. Add auto shows, add air shows, add the book shows add SanDiego Comicon. If there is a good article, worthy of going on the main page, then it goes, otherwise it doesn't. We post tons of "events". Man kicks ball into net, horse runs around track, woman hits ball with racket, guy writes book everyone liked, and on and on and on. Are we so hoity-toity that only gentlemen's sports and authors get to be featured on the prestigious "In the news"? --IP98 (talk) 21:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- No, we're just debating whether these trade shows deserve a free pass or whether they should be debated for significance each year. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:31, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose for four main reasons. Firstly, the events are "in the news" with in depth coverage of both events by e.g. the Guardian. Secondly, at the time of nomination, they will be "recent or current events of wide interest" (indeed they seem to be the most important in their fields) and pending the update meet all the ITN criteria. Thirdly, despite having a soft spot for sport, I recognise that we should strive for more variety, not less. Nominating top events in other fields is more desireable than removing the top events in these fields. Finally (for the E3), while the comparison with car shows is probably valid (not a field of interest), the comparison with film and other cultural events should also be considered. As a part of popular culture video games is certainly important enough for an ITNR item, and (unlike the earlier poetry discussion) a clear top event is identifiable. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 23:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose removal I feel as if Donnie's objections to these two items stems from a lack of understanding about the importance they have in their respective industries. E3 has massive significance to the direction of the video game industry each year since it is the event where hardware and software are revealed. This year, for instance, several guaranteed blockbuster titles were revealed in the first day alone and there was major information about the next generation of consoles which will have a massive impact on the industry. While E3 and CES might be of equal significance to the various trade shows Donnie mentioned, I would argue they are massively more important and influencial to their industries. --71.17.196.5 (talk) 23:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- Comment could someone please provide a link to the original discussion that led to these items being listed at ITNR. Hot Stop 04:59, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- here (and thanks to User:FunnyPika for doing the research). --IP98 (talk) 10:19, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks to you both. Hot Stop 02:40, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- here (and thanks to User:FunnyPika for doing the research). --IP98 (talk) 10:19, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose removal - Much as per IP98. Consumer electronics and video games are unlikely, by their nature, to generate regular ITN/C items (we have a firm precedent about not posting individual product launches). Having this in the ITN/R roster means these are assured to get some attention, which seems appropriate given their cultural importance. This is one of the functions of ITN/R. --LukeSurl t c 10:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- So it's inclusion at ITN/R is something of a sympathy vote, that this kind of thing really doesn't make the news, and we'd do it as as result of some kind of positive bias? It shouldn't be down to us to determine the cultural significance of items which clearly don't really make it in the news. Specialist news outlets will track this trade fair, but not much beyond that. WWDC will attract genuine attention, perhaps we should focus on featuring that? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:20, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose removal and support addition of more trade shows. Business is woefully underrepresented on ITN and the kidns of things that ate big business news (product launches, mergers, earnings reports) are usually opposed. We need some business stories other than fraud and other criminal charges and trade shows are a good chance to do so. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:05, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Support removal am quite surprised there's any support at all for a local commercial expo. ?????? (talk) 19:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Neither of these are "local", in that while they take place in the US and heavily feature US products, it is technology that is shipped and used world-wide. (to compare, there is the Toyko Game Show, which is predominate gaem products that will only get released in Japan though with a smattering of some western releases. That I would consider local). --MASEM (t) 19:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Problem with this artificial trade show is that pretty much everything that's announced is known beforehand (PS4, Xbox One etc). Maybe we should add WWDC to ITN/R, since that genuinely has global impact most times? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Let me reiterate the two-pronged test about - that the show itself (not the products themselves) widely in news sources, and that products or other announcements are also widely covered in news sources. Yes, the Xbox One and PS4 were known ahead of time, but if you look at non-video game sources, it is like this is their first reveal to the world at large, in terms of news. If you can do this for any other trade show, sure , it should be added. I'd rather see more trade shows added to broaden ITN's scope than limit it. --MASEM (t) 19:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- The "two-pronged" approach is standard ITN, not ITN/R. Obviously if we need a two-pronged approach we should discuss the inclusion of this each time round. Hence not ITN/R-worthy. As I noted, WWDC does a much better job of "surprises" and influences millions of Apple users each time, so would WWDC qualify for inclusion? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- As long as both WWDC and product news are coming from mainstream sources (and not Apple or high tech sites), sure. Same thing with CES, E3, and any other trade show you can name. If mainstream media is covering it, and we can support articles on them, there's no reason to not include that. Of course, that said - I agree that ITN/R case becomes weaker, but I would rather see the case then generalized to account for the test. In other words, the ITN/R would be revamped as "Trade shows, but only where both the show itself, and major product announcements are widely covered in mainstream, independent news sources." --MASEM (t) 20:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- WWDC's output is highly anticipated and has a huge effect on Apple's share price, it really counts. It's followed closely by many tech websites, live streamed, blogged etc. It's all over the web. E3 is just a bunch of stands with a few pseudo-announcements which we all already knew about. Trade shows, by default, should not be included, they're a money-spinning event which do nothing at all other than advertise products, and our promotion of them on the main page must be a god-send for them. Third-most visited website in the world providing de facto advertising for a week without any effort at all. Well done Wikipedia! I'm shocked that so many people support the free advertising provided to this simple (and unremarkable) trade show. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:41, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- I can say the same thing about sporting event coverage and that has even less effect on the average reader - it's just highlighting people and organizations already making millions of dollars. Yet no one complains about these. I completely understand avoiding the promotional aspects one can see here, but at the same time, there's very little coverage of modern technology that ITN can otherwise support. We need to be selective, and avoid blurbs that read as advertising. (And if we're really worried about that, then our DYK process should exclude commercial products of any type. Which they don't - they do vet for promotional vs "interesting fact" however). --MASEM (t) 20:46, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- This is a trade fair. It's about selling stuff. Generally speaking, everything that happens at trade fairs is pre-announced. The result of Superbowl or World Series or the Cricket World Cup is not usually pre-announced. There's no direct link to publishing an ITN about the FA Cup final to advertising, unlike publishing a direct link to E3 (which makes all its money from advertising and publicity) which we seem to wish to publish while it's still ongoing (unlike sporting events which we usually publish after the event, hence reducing the potential revenue stream from free main page advertising). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:42, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- It is a trade fair and it is 99% about marketing, but at the same time, there is a long tail of how these products will eventually affect consumer's lives. (eg: a big issue about used game sales arose from this conference, which affects rights of first sale, etc.) However, a carefully worded blurb avoids making it an advertisement and simply that the event that can have implications for those interested in that field. (Also, we do announce the start of certain sporting events like the Olympics, even though we also report results). And I'll point out again that the number of readers that are affected by the results of sporting events is very small; it's a popular topic but most results have little impact on the rest of the world. The argument about commercial advertising on the front page is bogus as long as TFA and DYK allow for articles about commercial products. I completely agree we don't want any blurb on the page "Hey, read about this product so you are urged to buy it", we want the blurbs to read "Hey, here's an article of decent quality about a topic you might be interested it, go read and help improve it." We can do that for commercial products and for trade shows, and we have done in in the past without problems, so that argument is rather weak. --MASEM (t) 15:24, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Ultimately, if something of note happens during this kind of fair, then cool. We should run it through ITN/C to see if it's of genuine interest to people. The current E3 ITN/C is not going to be posted, it's a good clue as to why it ought not be in ITN/R. If the blurb had said something like "The 2013 E3 concludes, with the PS4 and XBoxOne being announced" then fair enough. The fact that both consoles were announced beforehand renders that blurb somewhat inaccurate, but you get my drift. If more than just a bunch of new video games are announced each time, then fine, but we should discuss it each time. It's worth pointing out that this isn't to ban this topic from ITN forever, just to make it so we discuss it each year. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- To the bulk of the public, this show was the first reveal in depth of these products (in terms of games and capabilities - what most end users care about), despite being announced ahead of time (and in these industries, pre-announcements are sort of necessary so that the press can make necessary arrangements to be all set to report on it). But more to the other point - while I can agree that discussing inclusion in ITN for these trade shows does make sense, stripping out the ITN/R part basically means that there is going to be rehash of this same type of discussion every time a trade show comes up. ("is this advertizing? what cam out of it?" etc.) I think its clear these trade shows are ITN/R -worthy as to avoid the rehashing of the basic arguments, but still require discussion just like every other ITN/R item instead of automatic inclusion. As ITN/R says, it is does not guarantee automatic listing, so we're safe leaving these on and then having the question at each iteration "is this particular show really ITN-worthy enough?" As long as being listed in ITN/R is not a 100% guarentee of posting , then we can leave these in here and follow your advice on checking year-by-year. (I'd also consider the idea of a ITN/semi-R that events like these qualify for, if only to keep the arguments of whether these topics in general are ITN-worthy to one place (here) and then have the ITN/C page be used to discuss that specific event occurence.) --MASEM (t) 15:54, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, enough now, let's agree to differ. I think we've grown this "wall of text" sufficiently now. Much more and we'll suffer the wrath of others. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- To the bulk of the public, this show was the first reveal in depth of these products (in terms of games and capabilities - what most end users care about), despite being announced ahead of time (and in these industries, pre-announcements are sort of necessary so that the press can make necessary arrangements to be all set to report on it). But more to the other point - while I can agree that discussing inclusion in ITN for these trade shows does make sense, stripping out the ITN/R part basically means that there is going to be rehash of this same type of discussion every time a trade show comes up. ("is this advertizing? what cam out of it?" etc.) I think its clear these trade shows are ITN/R -worthy as to avoid the rehashing of the basic arguments, but still require discussion just like every other ITN/R item instead of automatic inclusion. As ITN/R says, it is does not guarantee automatic listing, so we're safe leaving these on and then having the question at each iteration "is this particular show really ITN-worthy enough?" As long as being listed in ITN/R is not a 100% guarentee of posting , then we can leave these in here and follow your advice on checking year-by-year. (I'd also consider the idea of a ITN/semi-R that events like these qualify for, if only to keep the arguments of whether these topics in general are ITN-worthy to one place (here) and then have the ITN/C page be used to discuss that specific event occurence.) --MASEM (t) 15:54, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Ultimately, if something of note happens during this kind of fair, then cool. We should run it through ITN/C to see if it's of genuine interest to people. The current E3 ITN/C is not going to be posted, it's a good clue as to why it ought not be in ITN/R. If the blurb had said something like "The 2013 E3 concludes, with the PS4 and XBoxOne being announced" then fair enough. The fact that both consoles were announced beforehand renders that blurb somewhat inaccurate, but you get my drift. If more than just a bunch of new video games are announced each time, then fine, but we should discuss it each time. It's worth pointing out that this isn't to ban this topic from ITN forever, just to make it so we discuss it each year. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- It is a trade fair and it is 99% about marketing, but at the same time, there is a long tail of how these products will eventually affect consumer's lives. (eg: a big issue about used game sales arose from this conference, which affects rights of first sale, etc.) However, a carefully worded blurb avoids making it an advertisement and simply that the event that can have implications for those interested in that field. (Also, we do announce the start of certain sporting events like the Olympics, even though we also report results). And I'll point out again that the number of readers that are affected by the results of sporting events is very small; it's a popular topic but most results have little impact on the rest of the world. The argument about commercial advertising on the front page is bogus as long as TFA and DYK allow for articles about commercial products. I completely agree we don't want any blurb on the page "Hey, read about this product so you are urged to buy it", we want the blurbs to read "Hey, here's an article of decent quality about a topic you might be interested it, go read and help improve it." We can do that for commercial products and for trade shows, and we have done in in the past without problems, so that argument is rather weak. --MASEM (t) 15:24, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- This is a trade fair. It's about selling stuff. Generally speaking, everything that happens at trade fairs is pre-announced. The result of Superbowl or World Series or the Cricket World Cup is not usually pre-announced. There's no direct link to publishing an ITN about the FA Cup final to advertising, unlike publishing a direct link to E3 (which makes all its money from advertising and publicity) which we seem to wish to publish while it's still ongoing (unlike sporting events which we usually publish after the event, hence reducing the potential revenue stream from free main page advertising). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:42, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- I can say the same thing about sporting event coverage and that has even less effect on the average reader - it's just highlighting people and organizations already making millions of dollars. Yet no one complains about these. I completely understand avoiding the promotional aspects one can see here, but at the same time, there's very little coverage of modern technology that ITN can otherwise support. We need to be selective, and avoid blurbs that read as advertising. (And if we're really worried about that, then our DYK process should exclude commercial products of any type. Which they don't - they do vet for promotional vs "interesting fact" however). --MASEM (t) 20:46, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- WWDC's output is highly anticipated and has a huge effect on Apple's share price, it really counts. It's followed closely by many tech websites, live streamed, blogged etc. It's all over the web. E3 is just a bunch of stands with a few pseudo-announcements which we all already knew about. Trade shows, by default, should not be included, they're a money-spinning event which do nothing at all other than advertise products, and our promotion of them on the main page must be a god-send for them. Third-most visited website in the world providing de facto advertising for a week without any effort at all. Well done Wikipedia! I'm shocked that so many people support the free advertising provided to this simple (and unremarkable) trade show. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:41, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- As long as both WWDC and product news are coming from mainstream sources (and not Apple or high tech sites), sure. Same thing with CES, E3, and any other trade show you can name. If mainstream media is covering it, and we can support articles on them, there's no reason to not include that. Of course, that said - I agree that ITN/R case becomes weaker, but I would rather see the case then generalized to account for the test. In other words, the ITN/R would be revamped as "Trade shows, but only where both the show itself, and major product announcements are widely covered in mainstream, independent news sources." --MASEM (t) 20:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- The "two-pronged" approach is standard ITN, not ITN/R. Obviously if we need a two-pronged approach we should discuss the inclusion of this each time round. Hence not ITN/R-worthy. As I noted, WWDC does a much better job of "surprises" and influences millions of Apple users each time, so would WWDC qualify for inclusion? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Let me reiterate the two-pronged test about - that the show itself (not the products themselves) widely in news sources, and that products or other announcements are also widely covered in news sources. Yes, the Xbox One and PS4 were known ahead of time, but if you look at non-video game sources, it is like this is their first reveal to the world at large, in terms of news. If you can do this for any other trade show, sure , it should be added. I'd rather see more trade shows added to broaden ITN's scope than limit it. --MASEM (t) 19:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Problem with this artificial trade show is that pretty much everything that's announced is known beforehand (PS4, Xbox One etc). Maybe we should add WWDC to ITN/R, since that genuinely has global impact most times? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Neither of these are "local", in that while they take place in the US and heavily feature US products, it is technology that is shipped and used world-wide. (to compare, there is the Toyko Game Show, which is predominate gaem products that will only get released in Japan though with a smattering of some western releases. That I would consider local). --MASEM (t) 19:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
- Support removal These events were added following a here discussion two years ago. From my reading of that discussion, I don't believe there should have been consensus to add these items to ITNR at the time. And since being added to the list, neither event has been posted -- or even nominated at ITNC. That's strike two. Regardless of my first two points, I don't feel either event is automatically notable enough. Take this year's E3 for example. Both Sony and Microsoft unveiled their new consoles before the convention -- I would say those announcements were more notable than E3 itself. Remember that even if these events were delisted from ITNR, they could still be posted through the normal means at ITNC if something truly important happened. Hot Stop 02:40, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- To clarify, E3 was posted in 2011 (but not 2012). CES has not been posted. Hot Stop 05:00, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Note this year's E3 is currently at ITN/C and has no consensus for main page inclusion, which somewhat makes a mockery of it still being at ITN/R, surely? The Rambling Man (talk) 09:47, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- That depends on which is the wider discussion. (Also, some opposes are based on update, and under current rules supporters have no real reason to take part in a discussion on notability there rather than here.) In my opinion, ITNR should strive to have larger discussions with more participants than is possible in the time-limited ITNC discussions, hence ITNC should not overrule a wider ITNR consensus. The key problem with ITNR is the lack of discussion on some older items and the ongoing clean-up is therefore required. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 10:57, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- The key here is that the existing E3 nomination at ITN/C is being rejected, not on article quality but on newsworthiness. Hence why should this particular event remain an ITN/R if even when it still is an ITN/R, it's considered not important enough for the main page? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- I see four supports, two quality and update opposes (who also has concerns it shouldn't be listed here) and three opposes not mentioning quality. Note that according to the current system supports on notability should not be necessary, and they may be underrepresented in the ITNC discussion. This is where we discuss these items, and it would be preferable if they were challenged here two weeks ago. ETA: Based on my !Vote count in this discussion it is clear that "support for notability votes" are underrepresented in the ITNC discussion, as suspected. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 20:48, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- I hardly think, given this discussion running in parallel with the nomination, that there should be any excuse that the "notability" supports are under-represented. The article is of lame quality, and the ITN/C crowd don't want it there in any case. How we can then justify its persistence at ITN/R for "cultural" reasons (or otherwise) when the existing ITN/C nomination is heading south is beyond me. People know what ITN/C and ITN/R are all about. (Four different editors have opposed and one has questioned the inclusion of this at ITN/C based purely on notability). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- I know we're not counting !votes, but you do realise that the ratio for retention in this discussion is 2:1. The rationales of those opposing removal (e.g. coverage in normal media) are valid so there is no clear reason to disregard the majority in the actual notability discussion. However the article doesn't look likely to get updated so the point will likely be moot for this year. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 21:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- It's 4-6 and I don't care how it finishes, but it does make Wikipedia look entirely stupid if we have an ITN/R that is currently being rejected on notability grounds as much as update grounds. It's a joke. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- 4? Anyway, I think that the participation numbers here are generally to low. As "no consensus" equals "remove" was opposed I think we should consider some form of relisting procedure. Perhaps using RFCs to increase participation if initial discussions are closely divided would be a possibility. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 21:55, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- 5 now, Donnie Park, me, Medeis, Hot Stop and Nelijack. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
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- Ah. Forgot the nom. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 09:22, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- The mockery is the colossal wall of text which grew inside that nom. --IP98 (talk) 11:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure what you're trying to say? The Rambling Man (talk) 11:56, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- Support There are two reasons why I believe these shows should not be on ITN/R. The first is that their notability depends upon the particular products etc announced at them, which will vary from year to year. That means they should be considered on a case-by-case basis at ITN/C. I think people have been losing sight of the fact that ITN/R is only for events that will always meet the importance criterion. The second is that I am not a fan of blurbs about things opening. They convey little newsworthy information and, in my opinion, do little to serve the stated purposes of ITN, particularly as there is likely to be little to report on at the beginning of the event (when most of the noteworthy stuff hasn't happened. What we have to evaluate the importance of it not the International CES or the EEE, but the fact that the expo has opened. I am not convinced that is something so important that it should get an automatic pass on the importance criterion. Neljack (talk) 08:29, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Comment Also, a procedural point - this is framed as a remove proposal, but since we are revising the list at the moment it would seem to make more sense to treat it as a discussion of whether these events should be included on the new list. This is significant because if there is no consensus, it would not be removed if it is a remove discussion but it would not be added to the new list if it was a discussion for that purpose. So if the discussion resulted in no consensus and it was treated as a remove discussion and not removed, then we would inevitably end up revisiting the matter for the new list, because no consensus would result in a different default for that purpose. Neljack (talk) 08:35, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
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- I guess we'll consider it discussed and not accepted for the new list. The new list will probably be completed before the next E3. 85.167.109.26 (talk) 09:22, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
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- Wrong. This item was discussed and included previously. There is no consensus to remove, as this was a remove proposal, so the item stays. The "new list" is to deal with those items where were added without discussion at the initiation of ITN/R. --IP98 (talk) 14:55, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
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- No, the new list is a completely new list - it's not just for reviewing those items that were added without discussion. See the proposer's statement here: [2]. Neljack (talk) 23:38, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- That proposal got one support !vote. Since then the proposer has been working off the items which were blindly added at the start. Further, no one can seem to agree when to remove an item from ITN/R. This no consensus to remove is exactly that, no consensus to remove. --IP98 (talk) 01:26, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- No, the new list is a completely new list - it's not just for reviewing those items that were added without discussion. See the proposer's statement here: [2]. Neljack (talk) 23:38, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Update this year's E3 will not be featured at ITN despite being ITN/R, the discussion there being closed, not simply on "quality" grounds. Questionable that an item that can't be voted onto the main page in a free vote should be in ITN/R. Also worth noting that E3 has never appeared as an ITN item, so how or why people think it should be an ITN/R, I know not. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Reply By "No consensus to post", let me clarify that this means that there was no consensus that the article met the updated article criterion with a high quality update (not about notability). --IP98 (talk) 20:14, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yea, the show (at least, E3 here) was certainly notable. Part of the reason may have been the switch to this venue to challenge the ITN/R. Irregardless, as long as being on ITN/R is not a guarantee of posting across the board, pending all proper article updates and consensus at ITN/C, it's not a big issue it wasn't posted. --MASEM (t) 20:17, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Four clear oppositions to this at ITN/C were on notability grounds, not lack of article quality. Closure of that ITN/C on other grounds is fantasy I'm afraid. This is not worthy as ITN/R, as ITN/R is entirely about just checking article quality, nothing else. Otherwise it's just the same as ITN/C. And it's never been an ITN article in any case. Incidentally, I don't think anyone said it wasn't "notable" per se, just not notable enough for ITN/R or ITN/C for that matter. No-one's nominated it for deletion (yet)... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- ITN/C re-opened. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yea, the show (at least, E3 here) was certainly notable. Part of the reason may have been the switch to this venue to challenge the ITN/R. Irregardless, as long as being on ITN/R is not a guarantee of posting across the board, pending all proper article updates and consensus at ITN/C, it's not a big issue it wasn't posted. --MASEM (t) 20:17, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Reply By "No consensus to post", let me clarify that this means that there was no consensus that the article met the updated article criterion with a high quality update (not about notability). --IP98 (talk) 20:14, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Note: Electronic Entertainment Expo 2011 was featured on Wikipedia's main page in the In the news section on 11 June 2011. For the discussion, see here. Funny Pika! 04:50, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you. No sign of the 2012 or 2013 being posted though. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:47, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Question to TRM Hopefully you'll be checking every ITN/R that was previously discussed and accepted and procedurally nominating then? Sounds like a magnificent idea to me. Of course, we'll need to come to some agreement on a removal process for items which were previously discussed and included. You'll of course be starting that process as well? --IP98 (talk) 22:44, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- If you wish to have an off-topic discussion with me personally, I suggest you use a talk page? Thanks! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- So you're happy with the above mentioned items remaining in the ITN/R or do we have go through this tedium each time? I'd like to understand your position. --IP98 (talk) 15:55, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- "tedium"? Oh. Perhaps you should find other things to do rather than just ITN if you think that. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm merely trying to understand your position: if every previously nominated and agreed upon item at ITN/R should be revisited, or if it will be on an ad-hoc basis. I quite enjoy the ITN process, but thank you for your kind suggestion. --IP98 (talk) 17:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm just a mere contributor. I can't decide on your behalf if "every previously nominated and agreed upon item at ITN/R should be revisited". What's your opinion on that? My point of view is (and was) that we should wipe ITN/R clean and start again. That way you have (a) clear, defined consensus for those items to be included and (b) none of these dubious hangovers from time gone by where anything seemed to go. I think I tried to start ITN/R again but it was shot down. So now we have the situation where we bumble along and get nowhere slowly. I'll just get back to editing mainspace articles until this circus resolves itself. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Given that this item was previously discussed and adopted, but that you're re-nominated it for removal, I'm just trying to ascertain if you'll be doing that for every item which was discussed before being added to ITN/R. Will there be some regular interval? How often will items which had consensus for addition be re-considered for removal? --IP98 (talk) 18:20, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Pardon? Why would you think I need to answer to you? I can nominate anything I like for removal from ITN/R, particularly those items which don't even make it through ITN/C on notability grounds. I'll be doing it entirely at my own discretion. Thanks for asking though! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Insufficient really. If you're looking to make sure ITN hasn't got ITN/R items which have failed to gain consensus on ITN/C, then others need to be removed according to your criteria I'm afraid. Heaven help us if someone nominates a new jet airplane again. --IP98 (talk) 18:51, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Please, stop creating a wall of text here. It's not required and not helping the community. Once again, if you need to discuss something with me, you know where my talk page is. Your sarcasm and hyperbole is duly noted. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Insufficient really. If you're looking to make sure ITN hasn't got ITN/R items which have failed to gain consensus on ITN/C, then others need to be removed according to your criteria I'm afraid. Heaven help us if someone nominates a new jet airplane again. --IP98 (talk) 18:51, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Pardon? Why would you think I need to answer to you? I can nominate anything I like for removal from ITN/R, particularly those items which don't even make it through ITN/C on notability grounds. I'll be doing it entirely at my own discretion. Thanks for asking though! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Given that this item was previously discussed and adopted, but that you're re-nominated it for removal, I'm just trying to ascertain if you'll be doing that for every item which was discussed before being added to ITN/R. Will there be some regular interval? How often will items which had consensus for addition be re-considered for removal? --IP98 (talk) 18:20, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm just a mere contributor. I can't decide on your behalf if "every previously nominated and agreed upon item at ITN/R should be revisited". What's your opinion on that? My point of view is (and was) that we should wipe ITN/R clean and start again. That way you have (a) clear, defined consensus for those items to be included and (b) none of these dubious hangovers from time gone by where anything seemed to go. I think I tried to start ITN/R again but it was shot down. So now we have the situation where we bumble along and get nowhere slowly. I'll just get back to editing mainspace articles until this circus resolves itself. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- ITN/R should be a point where the fundamental aspects of whether a recurring event should be in ITN is discussed such every time that event recurs, we don't have to do the tedium of discussing the fundamentals of why that event is included in the first place (as this discussion basically ended up as). That leaves ITN/C to discussion where the specific instance of the event on its own qualifies, based on the starting assuming that as an ITN/R, its inclusion is generally appropriate pending all other details (article in shape, appropriate sources, etc.) Otherwise, every time that same event comes up again, ITN/C has to go through the re-iteration of the fundamental arguments, and that just wears down on everyone. --MASEM (t) 16:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- (a) anyone can nominate any article at ITN/C. (b) ITN/R is intended to be just a "check the update is "adequate"" (whatever that means) and to entirely disregard arguments that the candidate isn't newsworthy. The most recent E3 nomination had at least five people opposing its listing on ground of non-newsworthiness. It hasn't been posted. That undermines the purpose of ITN/R, doesn't it Masem? We also have had other ITN/Rs that have not featured at ITN ever. That's why ITN/R needs a shake-up. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- ITN/R is not a rubber stamp pending article updates to posting at ITN, otherwise what's the point of the ITN/C aspect? For recurring events, ITN/R is there to serve as a means to split the discussion of whether the general event on its recurring cycle should be considered as ITN (as part of ITN/R), and the specific instance of that event. Taking this trade show thing, the consensus seems to be "keep it on here", so that every time CES or E3 comes up again in the future, we're not discussing the appropriateness of the general purpose of these events at ITN/C. That doesn't rubber stamp the events even with good article updates - if nothing really happens at those shows, then ITN/C can say "sure, that trade show is ITN/R, but it's not really notable this year, lets pass." It avoids wasting time discussing the appropriate of the trade show in general at ITN/C by saying that that it is a recurring event that may be post-worthiness, but needs the final ITN/C approval to go through on the specifics of that event. Note that this should apply to any event on ITN/R, in that even if the article's in shape, consensus can still !vote to not post due to various reasons. --MASEM (t) 18:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Re-read ITN/R: "Items which are listed on this page are considered to have already satisfied the 'importance' criterion for inclusion on ITN, every time they occur" i.e. they need nothing than the usual (mysterious) update quality to qualify. ITN/R is exactly a rubber stamp on notability. This year's E3 was rejected on "importance" grounds, thus undermining its place at ITN/R. Nothing more to say. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:51, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Then the E3 article should have been posted, by that logic - as the article (after a bit) was ready to go and E3 is a listed ITN/R. Yet its inclusion was argued at ITN/C and rejected and not because the article wasn't ready. Ergo, you can't have it both ways, nor do I think as I've seen in the past it is treated as a rubber stamp. I do believe that having ITN/R cuts out 90% of "why is this important" debate and simplifies it to discussing the specific instance and issues with the article itself, which is a huge time saver, and important. But not a rubber stamp as you might think. Further, I've no problem post-ITN/C discussing if the ITN/R item really belongs on ITN/R (that's what this talk page is for). But if the item is on ITN/R, and you're claiming that ITN/R is a rubber stamp, then E3 should have been posted per your logic, and that's what I think is wrong here. Practically, ITN/R is not treated 100% as a rubber stamp nor should it be. --MASEM (t) 20:15, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Then the wording at ITN/R needs rephrasing. Your perception of ITN/R is that it's simply a list of articles we should consider for ITN/C, and I agree with that. But there's a belief that ITN/R means "post regardless, as long as the [mysterious] update criteria are met". Time to either update the words at ITN/R, or re-factor it entirely to be "items you may think be worth nominating". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- I do believe it needs rewording to reflect actual practice. Ignoring the normal checks of a good blurb and an updated article (required in any ITN/C), stating that an item is an ITN/R means that the ITN/C process should focus solely on that instant of the event, which, in the case of the E3, it did (at least, a good chunk did), and not get into the weeds about why that ITN/R item is listed (which did also happen for the E3 item). It would help to avoid bias and off-topic parts of ITN/C discussions. --MASEM (t) 20:33, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yep, we need to counter the perception that ITN/R means "guaranteed main page per the [mysterious] update quality". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Items which are listed on this page are considered to have already satisfied the 'importance' criterion for inclusion on ITN, every time they occur. However, the relevant article(s) will still have to be updated appropriately and proposed on the candidates page before being posted. That's on WP:ITNR. I read that exactly as "guaranteed main page with quality update". How could it not mean that? What's the point of ITN/R if it doesn't mean that? If the update quality criteria is mysterious to you, please feel free to put forth suggestions for codifying it. --IP98 (talk) 17:57, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, what is the point of ITN/R. But sorry, perhaps you're discussing this with Masem who has suggested we rephrase it to "reflect actual practice", as in this case, where the E3 wasn't listed on grounds of no consensus of acknowledged notability, not the quality of the article. Feel free to put forth codification suggestions! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- The E3 wasn't listed on grounds of article quality. The admin who closed that discussion acknowledged the same. By your own reasoning, opposes at that discussion were automatically invalid on the grounds that the item was already on ITN/R. They can be disregarded just as those who opposed some beer sponsored rugby match. You're proposing a radical position here: that we need to counter the perception that ITN/R means "guaranteed main page per the [mysterious] update quality" contrary to the stated purpose of ITN/R, and that we can't have anything which might be considered free advertising at ITN, and yet you champion a beer sponsored rugby tournament. I'm unable to understand your motivations. --IP98 (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- The article had at least four opposes based on lack of notability. Go back and count them if you missed that. It wasn't related to article quality. Sorry you got that impression. And sorry, are you trying to equate a "trade fair" where a 100k people turn out which is entirely designed to sell computer games with a sporting event where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people from all across Europe turn out to watch, that happens to be sponsored? Is that your position? (Of course, they don't advertise during Superbowl [how many breaks?], or the World Series or during NHL Finals, or the NBA Finals do they?! They just have the name in the title, right?) I'm unable to understand your misunderstanding. Looks like I'm not alone in questioning the "sacrosanct" position of ITN/Rs either. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- The E3 wasn't listed on grounds of article quality. The admin who closed that discussion acknowledged the same. By your own reasoning, opposes at that discussion were automatically invalid on the grounds that the item was already on ITN/R. They can be disregarded just as those who opposed some beer sponsored rugby match. You're proposing a radical position here: that we need to counter the perception that ITN/R means "guaranteed main page per the [mysterious] update quality" contrary to the stated purpose of ITN/R, and that we can't have anything which might be considered free advertising at ITN, and yet you champion a beer sponsored rugby tournament. I'm unable to understand your motivations. --IP98 (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, what is the point of ITN/R. But sorry, perhaps you're discussing this with Masem who has suggested we rephrase it to "reflect actual practice", as in this case, where the E3 wasn't listed on grounds of no consensus of acknowledged notability, not the quality of the article. Feel free to put forth codification suggestions! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Items which are listed on this page are considered to have already satisfied the 'importance' criterion for inclusion on ITN, every time they occur. However, the relevant article(s) will still have to be updated appropriately and proposed on the candidates page before being posted. That's on WP:ITNR. I read that exactly as "guaranteed main page with quality update". How could it not mean that? What's the point of ITN/R if it doesn't mean that? If the update quality criteria is mysterious to you, please feel free to put forth suggestions for codifying it. --IP98 (talk) 17:57, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yep, we need to counter the perception that ITN/R means "guaranteed main page per the [mysterious] update quality". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- I do believe it needs rewording to reflect actual practice. Ignoring the normal checks of a good blurb and an updated article (required in any ITN/C), stating that an item is an ITN/R means that the ITN/C process should focus solely on that instant of the event, which, in the case of the E3, it did (at least, a good chunk did), and not get into the weeds about why that ITN/R item is listed (which did also happen for the E3 item). It would help to avoid bias and off-topic parts of ITN/C discussions. --MASEM (t) 20:33, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Then the wording at ITN/R needs rephrasing. Your perception of ITN/R is that it's simply a list of articles we should consider for ITN/C, and I agree with that. But there's a belief that ITN/R means "post regardless, as long as the [mysterious] update criteria are met". Time to either update the words at ITN/R, or re-factor it entirely to be "items you may think be worth nominating". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Then the E3 article should have been posted, by that logic - as the article (after a bit) was ready to go and E3 is a listed ITN/R. Yet its inclusion was argued at ITN/C and rejected and not because the article wasn't ready. Ergo, you can't have it both ways, nor do I think as I've seen in the past it is treated as a rubber stamp. I do believe that having ITN/R cuts out 90% of "why is this important" debate and simplifies it to discussing the specific instance and issues with the article itself, which is a huge time saver, and important. But not a rubber stamp as you might think. Further, I've no problem post-ITN/C discussing if the ITN/R item really belongs on ITN/R (that's what this talk page is for). But if the item is on ITN/R, and you're claiming that ITN/R is a rubber stamp, then E3 should have been posted per your logic, and that's what I think is wrong here. Practically, ITN/R is not treated 100% as a rubber stamp nor should it be. --MASEM (t) 20:15, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Re-read ITN/R: "Items which are listed on this page are considered to have already satisfied the 'importance' criterion for inclusion on ITN, every time they occur" i.e. they need nothing than the usual (mysterious) update quality to qualify. ITN/R is exactly a rubber stamp on notability. This year's E3 was rejected on "importance" grounds, thus undermining its place at ITN/R. Nothing more to say. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:51, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- ITN/R is not a rubber stamp pending article updates to posting at ITN, otherwise what's the point of the ITN/C aspect? For recurring events, ITN/R is there to serve as a means to split the discussion of whether the general event on its recurring cycle should be considered as ITN (as part of ITN/R), and the specific instance of that event. Taking this trade show thing, the consensus seems to be "keep it on here", so that every time CES or E3 comes up again in the future, we're not discussing the appropriateness of the general purpose of these events at ITN/C. That doesn't rubber stamp the events even with good article updates - if nothing really happens at those shows, then ITN/C can say "sure, that trade show is ITN/R, but it's not really notable this year, lets pass." It avoids wasting time discussing the appropriate of the trade show in general at ITN/C by saying that that it is a recurring event that may be post-worthiness, but needs the final ITN/C approval to go through on the specifics of that event. Note that this should apply to any event on ITN/R, in that even if the article's in shape, consensus can still !vote to not post due to various reasons. --MASEM (t) 18:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- (a) anyone can nominate any article at ITN/C. (b) ITN/R is intended to be just a "check the update is "adequate"" (whatever that means) and to entirely disregard arguments that the candidate isn't newsworthy. The most recent E3 nomination had at least five people opposing its listing on ground of non-newsworthiness. It hasn't been posted. That undermines the purpose of ITN/R, doesn't it Masem? We also have had other ITN/Rs that have not featured at ITN ever. That's why ITN/R needs a shake-up. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- I'm merely trying to understand your position: if every previously nominated and agreed upon item at ITN/R should be revisited, or if it will be on an ad-hoc basis. I quite enjoy the ITN process, but thank you for your kind suggestion. --IP98 (talk) 17:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- "tedium"? Oh. Perhaps you should find other things to do rather than just ITN if you think that. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- So you're happy with the above mentioned items remaining in the ITN/R or do we have go through this tedium each time? I'd like to understand your position. --IP98 (talk) 15:55, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- If you wish to have an off-topic discussion with me personally, I suggest you use a talk page? Thanks! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+Suggested change: Items which are listed on this page are considered to have already satisfied the 'importance' criterion for inclusion on ITN
every time they occur. However, the relevant article(s) will still have to be updated appropriately and proposed on the candidates page to review the importance of the specific occurrence of the item before being posted. --MASEM (t) 20:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)- I think the essence of your reword is correct, ITN/R really shouldn't be a "free pass", but a list of "most likely to be accepted" articles. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Let me pop this out to a new top-level section, for more discussion. --MASEM (t) 21:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- I think the essence of your reword is correct, ITN/R really shouldn't be a "free pass", but a list of "most likely to be accepted" articles. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Weak support for removal - I do think we need more trade and industry stories, but I'm not convinced that these are the ones to pick. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Could you suggest some? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Comment if having a link to a trade show article which may contain a link to a manufacturer article which may contain a link to a product article which our readers might be interested in is considered "free advertising", then certainly corporate sponsored sporting events are also free advertising on Wikipedia. Will The Rambling Man be nominating the Heineken Cup and the Barclays Premiere League for removal as well? We can't have any dastardly free advertising at ITN. --IP98 (talk) 19:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
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- The Rambling Man, I'm just trying to understand how far this goes. Does any article which may mention a corporate entity or product not qualify for a link on the main page because of "free advertising"? That's the reasoning you've used to suggest this (previously nominated and accepted) ITN/R item be removed, so I want to know how far that goes. Should the Barclays EPL be removed? Can we even mention the A350 on the mainpage, or is that advertising for Airbus? Where is the line? I'm trying to understand. --IP98 (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Please, this is becoming disruptive User:IP98, if you have something practical you'd like to discuss with me, use my talkpage, thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- The Rambling Man, you've proposed an item be removed on the grounds that it's "free advertising". I think it's very relevant to this discussion if you feel that any mention of a corporate sponsored event would qualify as "advertising". This is important for understanding the implications of this nomination. It isn't disruptive, and it isn't an item for your talk page. --IP98 (talk) 20:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Please, this is becoming disruptive User:IP98. You're creating a wall of text, making a mockery of this discussion, using sarcasm (although you claim you never do). I'm not prepared to engage with you any further, thanks! If you have issues regarding corporate sponsorship of the "Premiere [sic] League" etc, create a new thread to do so. You're really trying to flog something that's not worth flogging. This year's E3 article was rejected on grounds of its insignificance. You thought it was worth a free pass every year. We disagree. Get over it. Now I'll get back to improving articles and you can continue doing whatever it is you do here. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- If you're not going to engage me further, then that means you'll stop moving my inquiry and slightly expanding your own reply, giving the false impression that I've left three notes here and that you've only replied once, rather than the fact that three times you've moved my comments, and utterly refused to reply to a reasonable request: what constitutes free advertising on Wikipedia (a horse you've flagged a few times above), and what doesn't? Again, you've indicated that you won't answer that question, or engage me further, so I expect that maybe this time my remarks won't be vandalized by User:The_Rambling_Man. --IP98 (talk) 20:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've engaged with those who pose useful questions and make reasonable remarks. Your sarcasm has been noted. (By the way, you "flog" a horse, not "flag" it). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- There is no sarcasm here TRM, just a legitimate inquiry. Pease excuse my typo, and thanks for pointing it out. It was a relevant and important typo, and your revealing it to me was extremely helpful. So then, what is "free advertising" on WP and what isn't? What what do you mean by "whatever it is you do here" anyway? --IP98 (talk) 20:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. As I said, off-topic discussions can be held at my talkpage. Please move on now and help improve Wikipedia; this discussion really isn't doing that, as I'm sure you're aware. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- There is no sarcasm here TRM, just a legitimate inquiry. Pease excuse my typo, and thanks for pointing it out. It was a relevant and important typo, and your revealing it to me was extremely helpful. So then, what is "free advertising" on WP and what isn't? What what do you mean by "whatever it is you do here" anyway? --IP98 (talk) 20:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've engaged with those who pose useful questions and make reasonable remarks. Your sarcasm has been noted. (By the way, you "flog" a horse, not "flag" it). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- If you're not going to engage me further, then that means you'll stop moving my inquiry and slightly expanding your own reply, giving the false impression that I've left three notes here and that you've only replied once, rather than the fact that three times you've moved my comments, and utterly refused to reply to a reasonable request: what constitutes free advertising on Wikipedia (a horse you've flagged a few times above), and what doesn't? Again, you've indicated that you won't answer that question, or engage me further, so I expect that maybe this time my remarks won't be vandalized by User:The_Rambling_Man. --IP98 (talk) 20:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Please, this is becoming disruptive User:IP98. You're creating a wall of text, making a mockery of this discussion, using sarcasm (although you claim you never do). I'm not prepared to engage with you any further, thanks! If you have issues regarding corporate sponsorship of the "Premiere [sic] League" etc, create a new thread to do so. You're really trying to flog something that's not worth flogging. This year's E3 article was rejected on grounds of its insignificance. You thought it was worth a free pass every year. We disagree. Get over it. Now I'll get back to improving articles and you can continue doing whatever it is you do here. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- The Rambling Man, you've proposed an item be removed on the grounds that it's "free advertising". I think it's very relevant to this discussion if you feel that any mention of a corporate sponsored event would qualify as "advertising". This is important for understanding the implications of this nomination. It isn't disruptive, and it isn't an item for your talk page. --IP98 (talk) 20:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- Please, this is becoming disruptive User:IP98, if you have something practical you'd like to discuss with me, use my talkpage, thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
- The Rambling Man, I'm just trying to understand how far this goes. Does any article which may mention a corporate entity or product not qualify for a link on the main page because of "free advertising"? That's the reasoning you've used to suggest this (previously nominated and accepted) ITN/R item be removed, so I want to know how far that goes. Should the Barclays EPL be removed? Can we even mention the A350 on the mainpage, or is that advertising for Airbus? Where is the line? I'm trying to understand. --IP98 (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
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- Support removal per Hot Stop. SpencerT?C 14:44, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
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